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HR Journey, Deskless Workforce, and Paternity Leave with Chris Hadley

On this episode of the All About HR podcast, Tom Horne welcomes Chris Hadley, a guest that’s out on the front lines of HR helping to directly support his employees. They talk about Chris’ journey into HR and how the community helped him break into his career. Chris leads HR for a team of deskless workers and he speaks about how they recruit and support top talent in a highly specialized space. They close out the conversation by talking about maternity/paternity leave and how important it is to so many employees.    

 

VIP Guest Chris Hadley

Chris is a non-college-educated HR Director for Choices in Community Living, a non-profit that provides services for adults with developmental disabilities to live their best life.  

Chris has not given any TED talks, keynote speeches, or done any blog posts, but he is a huge advocate of changing the stigma that the human resources department is like the principal’s office.  

Chris earned his Professional in Human Resources certificate from HRCI in 2020 and is a member of the City of Beavercreek’s Youth Development Committee and currently is a part of the Beavercreek Rotary’s Board of Directors.  

Lastly and most importantly, Chris is a husband and was recently promoted to father of three.  

LinkedIn: Chris Hadley  

Twitter: @TheRealGappa 

Episode Summary

Breaking into HR – His Non-College Journey 

Chris’ story is one that we really love to amplify. He didn’t follow what some would consider the ‘conventional’ route into HR. Because he didn’t have a formal college education in HR, he was having a hard time breaking into the industry. At the time, he was a single father and just didn’t have the time to go back to school for a four-year degree and couldn’t take an entry-level HR position while still supporting his family. So, he didn’t give up on his goal of going into HR, but he did have to put it on the back burner for some time.  

Around 2018, he started to get more involved in the online HR community on Twitter and LinkedIn. This online community was vital in giving him encouragement and support, and ultimately gave him the push he needed to pursue his career in HR. In 2020, he got his Professional in Human Resources certificate from HRCI which has led him to become the HR Director in his current role.  

 

Managing a ‘Deskless’ Workforce 

Chris is the HR Director at Choices in Community Living, a non-profit organization that provides a range of services and care in the community for adults with intellectual/developmental disabilities. Their team is primarily made up of ‘deskless’ workers, what they call Direct Service Professionals (DSP) whose roles are similar to those of home health aides but a bit more personal.  

Their workforce spends the majority of their time in the field caring for their clients and often become like a part of their family. Because of this, they are very intentional when hiring. Their recruiters and managers have a strong understanding of what they are looking for in new hires because they all started off as DSPs themselves. They know what it takes to be in that role, and they carry that into the recruitment. Chris compares the process to a game of matchmaking. They not only want someone who has the right qualities for the role but is also the right fit for the client.  

Direct managers are a huge piece in helping manage their deskless workforce. They are the ones who are communicating and checking in with their team on a daily basis. Since almost all the managers were once DSPs, they understand what it is like to be in that role and the obstacles that they may face. Chris notes that not only are they working on continuously upskilling their DSPs, but they are supporting managers with professional development training in areas like communication as well.  

 

Culture that Embraces the Whole Person 

Something unique that Chris mentions about their culture is that they don’t require their DSPs or anyone to wear scrubs. They do this for a couple of reasons. They want them not to only be comfortable, but to also eliminate that possible stigma that they’re there to administer medication or take vitals. 

“We want to be more of a home, family-oriented atmosphere because they are going into people's homes, and they are spending anywhere from 4 hours to 24 hours straight with those people... What we really push is, we want you to come as you are. Be as comfortable as possible. Because not everybody wants to wear a uniform at work, and if you're more comfortable wearing gym clothes then so be it.”

Taking Benefits Further 

Chris and his organization are doing some innovative things around benefits for their people. Because Choices in Community Living is a non-profit organization, they don’t always have the ability to raise salaries or give bonuses, so they put focus on providing the best benefits possible.  

One offering that stood out during the conversation was that they teamed up with a local credit union to support their team members through the process of making their first big purchase. Whether it be a car, home, or personal loan, the credit union walks them through the whole process and works with them on budgeting and financing. If they need help on bringing their credit score up, they coach them on what steps they need to take. This benefit has been a great resource for their team and has given an added layer of support that many employers would overlook.  

Chris also mentioned another really impactful benefit that they implemented this year. The company joined an Individual Coverage Health Reimbursement Arrangement (ICHRA) program for its medical insurance. ICHRA is a newer type of insurance arrangement which allows employers to reimburse employees for premiums that they pay for health insurance that is purchased on their own. With this new program, Chris and his team can choose insurance from any provider in the open marketplace and are no longer tied to choosing only from the pool of coverage that the company offers. So far it has been a great success for them. 

“We've had over double the number of employee enrollments from the previous years. I'd say probably 60% are paying less than what they would have paid on the standard Plan A and Plan B that we've offered before. We have a few that pay nothing because of the amount that we contribute. So, we have people that are insured for free.”

Importance of Maternity/Paternity Leave

Chris and his wife just recently welcomed a new baby which got us talking about the importance of maternity and paternity leave and benefits in organizations. He mentioned that they were lucky to have the flexibility to work remotely if needed towards the end of her pregnancy and after the baby was born.  

Although Chris’ organization didn’t have formal paternity leave, they were extremely understanding and encouraged him to take as much time off as he needed to spend with his family. “It was awesome not having that pressure as soon as the baby comes to have to check e-mail or get back in the office and get back to work. That was a huge burden lifted.” 

Later he reflected on how this was starkly different from the experience he had in a previous position when his elder son was born. In that organization, spouses were only allowed two days off for parental leave. Although he was able to navigate that situation, if the delivery hadn’t gone so smoothly it could have been a different story.  

Chris discussed how during this delivery, his wife had to undergo an unexpected surgery which made it very difficult for her to walk or lift anything for days as she recovered. He mentions how he couldn’t help but if he had only been given two days off, how difficult it would have been to care for his wife and baby during this time, especially if he didn’t have any available PTO. Unfortunately, this is still the reality for many new parents in the workplace. 

According to a recent study by SHRM, despite being a highly ranked item of importance to employees, companies are actually scaling back on paid maternity and paternity benefits. Organizations offering paid maternity leave dropped to 35% (from 53% in 2020) and the number offering paid paternity leave dropped to 27% (from 44%). 

“That kind of benefit—I'm very biased as a new parent—I think trumps almost anything else out there. Being able to have the flexibility to work from home and be able to juggle a baby is one of the best benefits you could possibly have.”

These conversations are extremely important to have and hopefully, as we continue to have these discussions, we will see more organizations increase their parental benefits and support their workforces through better initiatives.

Full Transcript

Tom Horne: 

Welcome back to All About HR. Always love spending my time behind this microphone because I’m really excited for these conversations. I mean, I get up every day to have these conversations. I’m blessed to be able to have these conversations. And this one is a really fun one. Our guest today is Chris Hadley. I’ve known him and we’ve interacted out on the social HR space, but we’ve never talked. So, we are fulfilling our mission here. We got to talk last week and now I’m really excited to welcome him to the show.  

Chris is a non-college-educated HR director for Choices in Community Living, a nonprofit that provides services for adults with developmental disabilities to live their best life. Chris has not given any TED talks, keynote speeches, or done any blog posts but he is a huge advocate of changing the stigma that the Human Resources Department is just like the principal’s office.  

Chris earned his Professional in Human Resources Certificate from HRIC in 2020 and is a member of the City of Beavercreek Youth Development Committee and currently is a part of Beavercreek Rotary Board of Directors. Lastly, and most importantly, Chris is a husband and recently promoted father of three. Chris, welcome to All About HR. 

Chris Hadley: 

Thank you glad to be here. 

Tom: 

Glad to have you here and reading through that just brings me back to the principles. The goal here isn’t just to have everyone that’s written a book and done a TED talk. It’s to talk to people out there doing HR stuff. Living the HR life, not doing all the fancy stuff, standing in a pulpit, and saying how things are. I want to talk to people that are out there living what those things are. So, I’m really excited to have you here today for the conversation. 

Chris: 

Yeah, glad to be here. As you said, long time in the works. I love giving my kind of perspective as the one that didn’t go through the 20 years of college and worked his way up to the director level. I think you know I have a different twist on people getting into HR and getting promoted within HR. Also, I’m a big fan—very biased on this—of seeing more people that are using those soft skills, transitioning into HR and not going that formal college route and all that. 

Tom: 

Yeah, I love that. So, tell us a little bit about your journey. I know there’s some hotel background and I definitely want to key in on that but, tell me about your journey. How did you do it? What was your personal strategy? Were you trying to get to HR? 

Chris: 

Yeah, so for probably over a decade I always had this goal. I wanted to get into HR, it sounded great. A misperception I had was that I thought it would be great because I love dealing with people and HR is people. I was totally way off there once I started learning more and more about it. Then the big thing that derailed me was back then you had to have a degree. You have to have experience. You have to do all of this. Being a single dad, I thought I didn’t have time to go back to school trying to get a four-year degree while working full-time. So, I just kind of put it on the back burner as you know, it would be cool if it happened but no worries if it didn’t.  

And then luckily, I got more involved in Twitter around 2018-2019. Same with LinkedIn, I got connected with a lot of HR people and they said “you should do it, go forward your certification. Degrees aren’t the end all be all.”  

So luckily, I had a lot of people that I had never met before in person, just kind of pushing me on. And then I was like “You know what? I’ll go ahead and do it. Dump the money into certification.” Luckily, COVID hit so that kind of gave me more time to prep and read through all the laws and dates and everything. I mean that was just a headache. So silver lining, COVID gave me more time to study up on that. Then when it came time to take my exam, I did it online and passed it. That just kind of put me on a rocket ship so to say, where I’m at now. 

Tom: 

Yeah, that’s great. That’s a great story and I agree. I mean, I went to college, and I was there going, “I know I’m supposed to be figuring something out, but what am I doing here?” So, I ended up getting a hospitality degree because I figured I’m going to fight through all the business requirements because no matter what I end up doing, I’m going to have some business. I’m going to be a hospitality guy, I’m going to run hotels for my whole life, and I spent my college career preparing for that. Then, not too long afterward, I realized that I didn’t want to spend my whole career in hospitality. So, we both ended up in a lot of the same spaces and I went the college path that didn’t necessarily push me here, and you got here without going that college path. I think it really comes down to just working hard and focusing on getting better and getting somewhere. Was that your approach? Did you have a strategy when you got into hospitality, and when you started working towards this? 

Chris: 

Kind of. So, for hospitality, I dabbled off and on between part-time and full-time. For a long part of my life, I worked two jobs and hospitality was that part-time job on the weekends or evenings here and there.  

Yeah, HR was kind of in the background, but every time I’d get motivated to look into it, I would see these job postings with 7 to 10 years of experience, and a bachelor’s degree minimum. I was thinking, “I don’t have that and I’m not going to bother applying or even looking into it.” At that point, I couldn’t moneywise start out as an HR assistant making a little bit above minimum wage just to get my foot in the door. It was just one of those things that would pop up and l’d look into it and then get defeated with all the requirements for all those HR jobs.  

Luckily the HR community, which is by far my favorite community to be a part of, was awesome. They rallied behind me. They gave me the encouragement and the resources and the connections I needed. I got my butt in gear and they gave me the motivation that even though I don’t have fancy degrees or anything like that, I can be a valuable part of HR. 

Tom: 

Yeah, that’s fantastic. I see people out there in our community now in the spot you were in trying to get there. And I’ve also seen—I’ve only been around in this specific community since about two years ago—but I’ve already seen two or three people make that leap. A lot of it is because of the community and the dedication. You know, you can’t just say, “hey, I want to do this, I need a job” but it’s really putting in that time, investing in the community, being a part of that community, being open and learning, and you can get there. I think that’s really cool. I love that story. 

Chris: 

Absolutely. I mean nothing against college. If you go the college route, it’s great. There are great things to learn, but college is not for everybody. I started out at a community college and realized learning algebra and Western civilization wasn’t going to do me well for the degree that I was going for back then, which was not HR. So, I’m very thankful that SHRM and HRCI have those certifications that are just strictly HR things only and not all kinds of other courses or things that may not apply to it. 

Tom: 

Yeah, this is fantastic because I didn’t know that back story and these are exactly the stories I want to be amplified for people who are out there trying to do it, trying to make these leaps. I changed careers at 38. I remember going, “I don’t know if I’m going to be able to pull this thing off.” It’s a really tough headspace to be in when you’re trying to make that leap, so I just love amplifying these stories and this is a great unexpected conversation to start us off here today.  

So, let’s get into my first hard-hitting question for everybody. What are you listening to right now? 

Chris: 

I had to make a list because I’m all over the place with music genres, audiobooks, and podcasts. If you look at my phone and through all the different apps it is just a giant cluster of everything. But I just realized—I’m kind of ashamed to admit this—that Claude Silver has her own podcast, and I’m a huge Claude Silver fan. So, for podcasts, Emotional Optimism: Living in Silver Lining. I officially started binging that and I think I got another 70 episodes to catch up on, but that’s what’s playing right now. 

Tom: 

Oh wow, you’re going deep. You’re not just going to listen to current, you’re going back. What’s funny is, if you mentioned a Netflix show or like say, Yellowstone, I’d be like, “well, of course you’re going to binge and watch that” but it never would occur to me to do that with podcasts. Like with The Daily Show I watch all the time, I won’t watch yesterday’s episode or an episode more than two days after it airs. But I’ve got to change my thinking there, there’s some really good content I’m probably missing, and I should encourage my listeners to go back and listen. 

That’s awesome. So, what else? It sounds like you’ve got a pretty good list there. 

Chris: 

Yeah, so sticking with podcasts, obviously the HR Social Hour. I am a huge fan of John and Wendy. Love their show. I did the same thing once I stumbled across their show, I went back and listened. I could say, they were indirectly and directly a huge part of getting me into where I’m at now. The way they have their podcast set up with the questions. For me, not having any direct quote-unquote “HR experience” job titles and all that, hearing from HR professionals how they got started, where they’re at, how they moved up, just all those individual stories. It’s just a wealth of knowledge out there. So, instead of bingeing on Yellowstone, I’ll do the podcast, I’ll do the documentaries and just go deep on those, because for me that’s how I learn. From the stories and experiences of other people. So, all into that. 

Tom: 

Yeah, I will admit that when I see people from the community, and I realize that they were on that show, I will go back and watch it. I will go back. I wouldn’t say I’d binge it, but I’ll see a name, realize they were on that show and then go back and listen to that episode. Whether it was 1, 2, or 5 years ago. So, they are a huge influence on me as well. You’ve probably heard that they were part of the reason why I was inspired to start doing this podcast. I feel like they deserve a shout-out on every one of my episodes.  

Any music? You mentioned that you’re a music guy. 

Chris: 

Yeah, so music…on my Apple Music app I have so many different playlists. From country, to music for the gym, I even have a playlist specifically for just good vibes. I started kind of dabbling into the white noise and those alpha binaural waves for concentration, so we’ll see how that goes as far as keeping my brain on track and focused. Yeah, I got country, techno, dubstep, I mean just pretty much a little bit of everything outside of classical music. 

Tom: 

If it’s good, you like it, it sounds like. It’s funny, I always like talking about music and you get the people that are like “I was playing this album” or “I was listening to this person.” I do that too, but I tend to be so all over the map that I just make a fall/winter playlist and a spring/summer playlist. Then I have some other ones, but I like mixes. I like hearing Metallica with Tupac with Fish with Sturgill Simpson. I like having all this wild stuff coming at me.  

Why do you like having mixes? Is it more mood? Is it more just like the environment you’re going for? What’s your mix approach? 

Chris: 

Yeah, so I mean it depends on, like we said, the mood. The mix I have, that’s my gym music. Obviously, that’s strictly for the gym. Or if I’m getting ready to go out and hit golf balls, and I think I want to hit them farther I’ll listen to a little Metallica or Lil’ Wayne, or something along those lines. Country music is mostly just playing in the background. The dance techno stuff, that’s kind of been my jam. I get really excited seeing these DJs mix three, four, or five songs all together for one song and how it flows just seamlessly. I thought I could be a DJ, that was kind of like my dream job at one point in time and then I tried mixing songs and I’m like “this is way tougher than what it looks.” So huge respect for the DJs that can do all of that. Then I do have a big mega list of just everything dumped in there. If I think it was a good song, it’s in. 

Tom: 

Yeah, I love that. Have you ever heard of The Avalanches? Do you know them? They might be up your alley. They do a lot of mixes. They’ve been around forever, but I just saw them out here recently and pretty cool stuff. 

I’ll send you a link to that so you can check it out. 

Chris: 

I will definitely do that. 

Tom: 

Let’s talk about some HR things. We could probably do an hour of just you and I hanging out, but let’s get into some HR conversation here. So, tell me about your current role. Tell me about what you’re doing, and where your focus is at Choices in Community Living. 

Chris: 

Yeah, so the big focus is our people. Our leadership management team is just a small fraction of our total employee base. The bulk of our employees are called Direct Service Professionals or DSP’s for short. Not a very common job title, it is pretty niche. The way that I compare it, it’s similar to like a home health aide but less formal, and more personal. We don’t require our DSPs to wear scrubs or any kind of medical garment. They can go in whatever they would normally wear, going shopping or out to restaurants or at home. We want them not to only be comfortable, but to also eliminate that possible stigma that they’re there to administer medication or take vitals. We want to be more of a home, family-oriented atmosphere because they are going into people’s homes, and they are spending anywhere from 4 hours to 24 hours straight with those people. 

Tom: 

I love that differentiation. I would imagine the feedback is probably pretty positive from your clients and customers. Does that flow all the way through? Do you see that all the time? To me that just really stands out as a great nuance to really understand about providing that kind of care in somebody’s home. 

Chris: 

Yeah, I mean it flows from top to bottom. We have people that on our C-Suite that are in shirt, tie, and jacket 24/7 and then we have some that are in T-shirt and jeans. We have people wearing shorts, cowboy boots, sweatpants, hoodies. I mean you name it. What we really push is, we want you to come as you are. Be as comfortable as possible. Because not everybody wants to wear a uniform at work, and if you’re more comfortable wearing gym clothes then so be it. At the end of the day, you’re going to help take care of our clients and we want to make it as easy and effortless as possible. 

Tom: 

Yeah, that’s fantastic. Sorry to jump in, I just wanted to just dig in there a little bit more. So, you have your team mostly out in the field. Is that where most of your workforce is currently? 

Chris: 

Yeah, big bulk of it is out in the homes or group homes. Taking care of the clients, prepping meals, transporting them to either work or activities, or providing that one-on-one care that they need. A lot of our people are kind of on the lower end of the spectrum so they don’t need that 24-hour supervision. They just need help with basics, bathing, cooking, and then we do have some on the high end that need 24-hour hands-on assistance. When we do recruit and bring people in, we try to find the best fit for the client because obviously, not everyone is fit to take care of these people with their special needs. Especially the ones that are more severe, it can be very, very frustrating if you’ve never been in this field or had to be around anybody with disabilities. 

Tom: 

So, it sounds like that’s some pretty hard work that your team is out there doing. I’d imagine it’s pretty gratifying work as well, but even if it’s gratifying that has to be hard work. You’re not just coming in logging in and sitting at your desk—not that sitting at a desk isn’t hard sometimes. But how do you recruit and support that team out there on the frontlines who are doing a little bit more non-traditional, more on-the-ground forward-facing work? 

Chris: 

We have some incredible directors and managers. I believe every single one of them started as a DSP and worked their way up, so they know what it’s like to be out there. They know what it’s like to experience having someone come in late or call off at the last minute and have to stay over and scramble for help. Each manager and each director run their homes as best as they see fit, obviously. 

Everyone is different. Every home is different. So as far as overseeing and managing, they do a phenomenal job taking care of their workers, and communicating with them, whether it’s through text, zoom, in person, one-on-ones, whatever works best for them. That’s what they do, and for the most part, it has been awesome seeing what you alluded to, that it is very rewarding and gratifying. People that tend to stick with our clients for the long run, and they consider them as family.  

Before COVID we had a lot of them taken to barbecues and family reunions as almost family members. The clients we serve are awesome. Of the ones I’ve met, there’s not one that I didn’t like. A lot of them are sharp and witty. We have some that will tell you stories for days. We have some that compete in the Special Olympics and gladly show you their bowling balls and track spikes and whatever they’re competing in it. 

Tom: 

I love it. 

Chris: 

It’s just really cool hearing their stories and seeing basically how they live their lives through their lens. 

Tom: 

It sounds like you focus on the people first. Good communication, being accessible, letting the people be themselves and be the ‘whole person’. It sounds like it also takes a lot of skill. I can imagine if I was in that role and I’m like “I love my manager and they’re really nice” but it takes probably a lot to be out there doing this on a daily basis. 

Do you hire for the skill set? Do you train the skill set? How do you support the skills behind the person? 

Chris: 

So, all the above. If someone doesn’t have the skill set, we will gladly give them the training. Obviously, they go through an orientation training process where they learn the clients. They learn what’s unique about them. What to look out for, how to deal with behaviors, and what triggers behaviors so they’re not just going in there completely blind or getting thrown into the deep end.  

With our managers and directors, it’s just continual trying to get training out to them. Communication is a big one. I’m sure you’re aware that not everybody communicates the same, so that’s been kind of our big goal this year. To get more communication training, but not make it sound like you have to learn how to communicate. 

Tom: 

Right, people turn off to that for sure. It’s a reaction. We all think we are great communicators. If there’s one thing all of us need, it’s communication trading or evolution or focus. 

Chris: 

Absolutely, absolutely. The thing with communication is, if you learn different communication styles for different people and you know how to speak to them and with them, it’s almost like you’re using Jedi mind tricks sometimes. Get through to them the points that you need to, and then you can also get them to open up and tell you the things that they may not want to tell you, but that you need to hear to help them with their job and make their work life a lot better. 

Tom: 

When you’re going out and recruiting, it’s a nonprofit, so you probably don’t have just all the big bucks to throw salary at people and demand you have XY and Z certification. How do you go about recruiting and bringing the right talent in? What’s your main focus? Is it skills? Is it personality? Tell us a little bit more about how you get these great team members on the bus. 

Chris: 

We have a great recruiter who does a big bulk of the recruiting, and she was a DSP as well before, so she knows what it takes. She works very closely with our managers and directors as far as what kind of skill sets and personalities work best with individual clients. So, we’re just not throwing people out there and hoping it works out. She has a very good understanding of this is the home, these are the clients, these are their behaviors and how they do their day-to-day’s. It’s almost like playing matchmaker.  

We don’t just hire anybody, but you know if somebody comes in and they don’t have any experience, we will train them. Because again, once they get in here and their heart is in it and they’re not just here for a paycheck, they get to know these clients and they’re with them for a long time. It goes back to that whole family feeling.  

Although, as you mentioned, we are a non-profit. We don’t have a Brinks armored truck in the back full of money that we can just throw at people. Our hands are tied when it comes to what we can pay. It’s that sense of fulfillment that they get by helping these people. On top of that from a recruiting standpoint, we try to provide them with whatever kind of benefits that we possibly can because again, we don’t have a blank check to write.  

One of the big things that we started doing is we teamed up with the credit union and for anyone who is looking at buying a home for the first time this credit union is getting them ready to make their first big purchase. They’re working with them on budgeting and financing. They’re working on if they need help boosting their credit, how to get that boosted, and walking them through that. It’s not like here’s a piece of paper, do this, you’re on your own. 

One of the big things that was really cool is this year we started an ICHRA program for our medical insurance. So instead of saying you know, here are the two plans you get to pick from. You now have a whole marketplace to shop from, so you don’t have to be stuck with what we offer. You can go through any insurance company and pick what plan you want. To go over the success that we’ve had—we’ve had over double the number of employee enrollments from the previous years. And I’d say probably 60% are paying less than what they would have paid on the standard Plan A and Plan B that we’ve offered before. We have a few that pay nothing because of the amount that we contribute. So, we have people that are insured for free. Instead of paying a couple hundred dollars per paycheck, that’s where that money is going directly into their bank account, and they still have insurance. 

Tom: 

Now that’s a fantastic benefit. I want to take a quick break, but I want to keep this benefits conversation going and I want to change the angle a little bit. Because you’re a new father, I want to talk about what that experience has been like and understand what kind of benefits and what you’re seeing in the market. As much as you and your family can talk about it. 

I’d like to get into that and before I take this break that I just alluded to; I also want to compliment you. When I ask the question about bringing in great talent, I hear so many things about “we look for this and that and the other.” I love that you recognize the recruiter because you see out there so many recruiters doing so much great work and it is oftentimes thankless from hiring managers and directors. It’s just great to hear that one person, that role is so impactful on top of everything else you’re doing. There’s a real human behind this. It’s not the ATS. It’s not just a system, it’s a real human out there doing great things to help drive that talent into your organization. So, I love that recognition.  

Alright, here’s the break we’re taking. We’ll be right back.  

Okay, it is time for the HR hot sauce. Chris, Are you ready? 

Chris: 

Absolutely.  

Tom: 

What is the best job you have ever had? 

Chris: 

So, it’s hard to pick just one winner. Just like you can’t pick the best basketball player like MJ, Lebron, and all of them. Throughout different stages of my career, there are different best jobs. Obviously, my current job at Choices. Best job ever, phenomenal. My twelve-ish years in the hotel business, all but one of the hotels I worked for were awesome and then my short time at Associated Builders and Contractors. It’s right up there with them. 

Tom: 

What’s the one phrase at work that drives you nuts? 

Chris: 

So luckily, we don’t use this a lot around here, but the one that makes me flip tables is: “This is how we’ve always done it.” 

Tom: 

I’d flip tables too. Yeah, you and I are aligned on that one.  

Do you like working on rainy or sunny days?  

Chris: 

Has to be sunny, rain is too relaxing. 

Tom: 

I like that too. How can someone make your day at work? 

Chris: 

Just hearing their successes. Regardless of if it’s me being a part of it or helping them, or if it’s something personal. Any good story, I love hearing. 

Tom: 

What’s your best useless skill? 

Chris: 

So, this one is only useless like 99.9% of the time, but I can eat really, really, really fast. 

Tom: 

That’s a good skill. Mild, medium, hot, or nuclear? 

Chris: 

I am somewhere in between medium and hot with a hint of sweet. 

Tom: 

Ooh, I like that. You like that sweet heat like BBQ. Is that your go-to? 

Chris: 

Yup, that’s the go-to. 

Tom: 

Just had some of that last night. Favorite interview question to ask or be asked? 

Chris: 

When I used to recruit and even in the few interviews that I do now, I like to always freestyle questions after getting through those generic requirement ones. I’ve gone with: favorite Marvel movie, who’s a better rapper Lil Wayne or Eminem, or my favorite why is Ohio State University the greatest.  

Tom: 

My dad’s a Buckeye, so I’d have no trouble answering that. 

Chris: 

I’m in the Buckeye state, so it’s a blast to ask. 

Tom: 

What song do you put on to get you out of a funk? What gets you up? 

Chris: 

There are a couple of them, I’m a big music head. But my two go-to’s are Nelly, Country Grammar or Clayton Anderson, Shotgun Rider. For now. During college football season it’s Enter Sandman, that’s the entrance of the Hokies. 

Tom: 

Great job on the Hot Sauce. Let’s get back to the show.  

And we are back. That was a great HR Hot Sauce, Chris. Really some good answers in there. Quick question. Before we jump into that benefits conversation, you mentioned the Hokies. Are you a Virginia Tech fan? Is that what I’m hearing? 

Chris: 

I am indeed a Virginia Tech fan. Absolutely. Back story on that, when I was looking into going to college, I didn’t want to stick around here. I started looking and wanted to get into physical therapy and be an athletic trainer for an NFL team. Dream goal. So, I found their program, loved it, and then in the application process, I found out I was going to be a dad. So, I put that trip to Virginia Tech for college on hold. Ever since then I’m still holding and still a big fan. 

Tom: 

Not to go all the way down the rabbit hole, but I went to James Madison University at the same time that Michael Vick was at Virginia Tech. I was at Virginia Tech when he scored his fourth touchdown, doing a front flip from the five-yard line into the end zone in the first quarter, on his fourth touchdown. I don’t know if I’m ever going to forgive Virginia Tech for making me feel the way I felt that day. 

Chris: 

Yeah, I think any sports fan has that one memory of somebody just ruining stuff. 

Tom: 

Yep, that was it. But I always enjoyed that school, it’s great. I just wanted to talk a little Tech for a minute.  

Alright benefits. First off, huge congratulations. Number three? 

Chris: 

Yes, number three. So, two boys and then I have a bonus daughter that I got by marrying my awesome wife. 

Tom: 

Fantastic, that’s nice, well-rounded, that’s perfect. I saw the recent picture. What’s your son’s name, your newest? 

Chris: 

So my newest son is Elias.  

Tom: 

Elias, I saw the candy corn picture on Twitter. We’ll put your handle in there. If anyone listening likes seeing cute pictures, this is probably one of the cutest baby pictures I’ve ever seen. 

Chris: 

Yeah, so full disclosure. I despise candy corn and when we went to have our pictures taken, my wife brought that out. I’m like “absolutely not.” She won that battle, but it turned out great. In that instance, I’m a fan of candy corn. Outside of it I want nothing to do with it. 

Tom: 

I like candy corn, but I am in the minority. I get it. I’m glad your wife won that battle and it sounds like you are too.  

Any time I get a chance to talk to a new parent, which hasn’t been on this podcast yet, I want to hear about the experience. What was that like for you? Where are some of the gaps you see in our society?  

I don’t know if we want to talk specifically about your organization, but what was that experience like for you and for your wife? Bringing your third child in while having full-time jobs while trying to manage all these different pieces. 

Chris: 

Yeah, so we got extremely lucky. Both my wife and I, we can work remote/hybrid, whatever you want to call us. So, as she got closer to her due date, she was able to work a little more from home. She works in a field that isn’t particularly remote-friendly perse. She does clinical medical research, so she has patients that she has to see. They have to do blood samples and draws and all that. So, it’s not like she can do that zoom. She was able to fluctuate her schedule a little bit to have time to be at home and work rather than being in the office.  

With me, not to brag, but it was a perfect situation. The company that I work for told me from the beginning that whenever the baby comes to take as much time off as I need. They said to do whatever you need to take off your plate. Don’t worry about using PTO or anything like that, just spend time with the family and bond. It was awesome not having that pressure as soon as the baby comes to have to check e-mail or get back in the office and get back to work. That was a huge burden lifted. 

Tom: 

That’s awesome, but that sounds like an outlier. What are your thoughts on paternity leave? I don’t see that out there as much. I’m starting to hear a little bit more about it lately. Do you feel like there is a need? Would that need have helped you if your company hadn’t naturally given you the flexibility? 

Chris: 

Oh, for sure. I will say, with this son it was different than with my first son. He was born on a Tuesday. The company I worked for allowed two days of parental leave for spouses, so I was able to have those two days off. That birth was seamless and routine. We were in and out with no complications. Obviously, I was much younger back then than I am now, so I didn’t blink an eye and didn’t think much of it.  

With this one, I think it also has to do with being in HR and hearing more stories, a lot of things came to light. Our company doesn’t have quote-unquote paternity leave for spouses and hearing stories from others that are in that same situation.  

For us it wasn’t a routine pregnancy or delivery, I should say. When we finally made it home, everything went fine, there were no complications. Baby and my wife were healthy, but she had to have a last-minute surgery. After that surgery, she is restricted on what she can do, where she can walk, what she can lift, and this got me thinking. If this happened on a Tuesday, like my last son, after two days, I go back to work. Who’s going to be there to help her? Obviously, she’s on leave, but a lot of people also have Monday through Friday jobs.  

It boggled me that if you don’t have paternity leave or leave for spouses, and you don’t have the option to work remotely, it just to me doesn’t make sense. Letting new parents spend that time with their newborn and help their spouse if they are recovering or if it’s something more extreme. That kind of benefit—I’m very biased as a new parent—I think trumps almost anything else out there. Being able to have that kind of flexibility to where I can work from home and be able to juggle a baby and work is one of the best benefits you could possibly have. 

Tom: 

You always think about these use cases in either the worst-case or best-case scenario, but I think that has to be a pretty common scenario. It’s not just the dad wanting to spend the first five days at home with their new child—which I think should happen at a base level. But at the same time if there is care that you have to give not only to the baby but to your wife or partner, you shouldn’t have to burn all your PTO right out the gate to do that. It’s great that your organization gave that, but that’s just another thought point of really having defined benefits as organizations to support your team.  

You said you’re biased but that’s what humans do across the aggregate, we have babies whether it’s adopted or you’re having them. Not everyone has to do that, of course, but if you’re saying that’s one of the most important benefits you can have, I would imagine there’s millions of other people thinking the same thing out there. The fact that we have moved the bar on maternity leave, that’s not even where it should be, let alone starting to get into that paternity leave. I think that’s a conversation that should happen more often. 

Chris: 

Absolutely, and going back to the whole PTO thing. I’m coming up on my one-year anniversary. I have worked for companies before where you had to work a full year before you even get PTO. So, for someone in my situation PTO would not even be an option. That’s another scary headache that some people have to deal with. If they want to take time off to be with their new child or be with their partner to help out, it’s unpaid.  

And if the new mom doesn’t have maternity leave or doesn’t qualify for it in their company, and if they don’t have any kind of like Aflac or short-term money, those bills start piling up really quick. That is a stress I don’t think anybody wants to go through. 

Tom: 

Based on the conversations I’ve had here a lot, when you’re going through that, you’re not coming into work doing a great job. You can be the best worker ever, but that’s going to pull you away.  

This has been a great conversation and circling back to the beginning. Neither you or I are TED talkers. We’re not authors. We’re not CHROs for the last 20 years. I also don’t think that means that we can’t be part of these conversations. That’s really part of why we’re here, and I’ve learned a lot through this. I love connecting with you on this.  

I would encourage you not just to be a listener in the community but to have a voice. For me, I don’t want to be an influencer. I don’t have the degrees or experience or knowledge to do that, but I found that I can be an amplifier. I can find bits and pieces and help get some of these bigger things out there, and I encourage you to keep doing what you’re doing. Keep being a part of the community. Be an amplifier or be an influence. Be whatever you want. But you don’t just have to be a part of it to listen, join in on the chats. I encourage you to keep doing what you’re doing, and it’s been a pleasure chatting with you. This has been really, really fun. 

Chris: 

Yeah, likewise. That whole amplifier thing, I love that. I will definitely take that to heart and join you in the amplification. 

Tom: 

Yeah, we’ll see you around the HR community. We didn’t get to talk about HR wrestling. I know you, Paul and John had a pretty good conversation there, so maybe we’ll put a link back to that thread. I want to talk about that as well, but I think we’re out of time. Chris, congratulations on your new addition. Best wishes to you and your family, and hopefully, we’ll have you back here down the road. 

Chris: 

Yeah, for sure. Again, thank you Tom. This was awesome and a long time coming and I’m looking forward to talking to you more either online or offline. 

Tom: 

A new friend, I appreciate it. Everyone, thank you for listening. If you want to be a part of the show, reach out. I’ll talk to anybody and everybody. I really welcome anybody who wants to be a part of this, to throw your hat in the ring. I’d love to get to know you better as well.  

Chris, thank you. Laura, my producer, thank you very much as well. People Element our sponsor, love you and we’ll see you next time on All About HR. 

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